专访戴若·顾比：两年前的决议，澳大利亚懊悔了吗（全文）

liukang20241天前cgw吃瓜898

长安街知事 | 记者刘晓琰实习生张信云

澳大利亚总理阿尔巴尼斯的我国之行于11月7日晚完毕，澳外长黄英贤也将从北京赶往东京。此行是阿尔巴尼斯就任以来初次拜访我国，也是自2016年以来澳大利亚总理初次访华。

11月5日，阿尔巴尼斯在上海到会了第六届我国国际进口博览会开幕式等系列活动。他标明，澳大利亚将继续与我国加强沟通，推进游览、买卖等范畴的务实协作。

阿尔巴尼斯说，“游览是两国公民对话沟通的最好方法之一。咱们在互相的国家能够了解对方的文明和风土人情。游览业是重要的两边产业链。”

阿尔巴尼斯访华期望达到哪些作用？关于改进中澳联络有哪些作用？这是否意味着澳大利亚对华方针的方向有所改动？此前，维多利亚州决议同中方在“一带一路”框架下展开协作，但2021年4月澳政府取消了这份协作协议。对此，澳大利亚懊悔吗，政界和商界是否有想要从头参加的声响？

澳大利亚我国工商业委员会董事会成员，丝绸之路国际商会澳大利亚代表戴若·顾比（Daryl Guppy）就“一带一路”主张和中澳联络等与记者进行了共享。

澳大利亚对华方针方向未产生实质性改动

知事：今年以来，澳大利亚总理阿尔巴尼斯屡次表达了访华的志愿。11月4日至7日，他正式拜访我国。您以为此访期望达到哪些作用？关于改进中澳联络有哪些作用？

戴若·顾比：此访对推进中澳联络展开具有重要含义，有助于澳方更精确地了解我国的实践状况。

此前，澳大利亚媒体误导性的报导，以及安全部分骇人听闻的简报，对政府的决议计划产生了很大影响。此行是阿尔巴尼斯就任总理后初次访华，为他供给了一个与我国公民互动的时机，看看我国的实在相貌。

此外，他致力于平缓两国的买卖联络，并处理最近困扰澳中联络的一些问题。但要做到这一点，需求澳大利亚吊销曩昔多年针对我国产品和服务施行的歧视性买卖壁垒。

澳大利亚工商界也期望借此访与中方进行更深化的评论，并等待这次拜访获得有利作用。这次的气氛与此前的澳中联络基调有所不同，澳方真诚地期望以文明的方法倾听、了解和处理问题。

11月4日，阿尔巴尼斯抵达上海虹桥机场。

知事：从2017年开端，澳大利亚特恩布尔政府和莫里森政府盲目跟从美国，炒作“我国威胁论”、以所谓“国家安全”为由阻挠两国间正常经贸活动，中澳联络和经贸来往降至低谷。现在阿尔巴尼斯政府有意修正与我国的联络，这是否意味着澳大利亚对华方针的方向有所改动？

戴若·顾比：尽管一系列痕迹看起来像是方针改动的信号，但实践并非如此。因为澳大利亚越来越挨近美国的对华方针方针，澳方本身的对华方针方向非但没有产生实质性改动，乃至在许多方面还坚持了强硬情绪。阿尔巴尼斯和美国总统拜登最近在华盛顿的接见会面标明，澳大利亚在对华方针上同美国没有不合。

值得注意的改动在于澳方与我国触摸的口气，不再“大喊大叫”，不再宣布对抗性言辞。澳大利亚外长黄英贤是一位老到的交际官，她了解，无声的交际比大喇叭扩音式的叱骂能获得更好的作用。这是一种礼貌的口气，以求两边能顺利地沟通与协作，是两边联络平缓的活跃体现，但并非方针方向产生了严重改动。

假使将此解读为澳大利亚彻底背离了美国的对华方针，特别是美国炒作的“我国威胁论”，那将是一种误解。但我期望，在这种平缓的气氛里，中澳两边能够展开更多的游览和沟通，更深化地了解互相的需求和希望，这契合两国的利益。

澳大利亚懊悔了吗

知事：您曾经在承受《南华早报》采访时标明，“丝绸之路”是全球化最早的一种方法，它把丝绸和茶叶带到欧洲。您以为我国是第一个认识到新式全球化，即全球经济中心正在改动的首要经济体，您信任我国将推进全球化的新迭代。那么“一带一路”关于新式全球化有什么含义？

戴若·顾比：新式全球化的重要之处不只在于“新”，更在于它从头发现了开始丝绸之路的理念：即买卖致力于带来协作互利，而非西方眼中用来降服和克扣的东西。

在我国古代，以陶瓷为代表的产品沿着丝绸之路走向世界各地。在印尼海域打捞起的我国古代沉船中发现，船上所载的瓷器是专门为与其他亚洲国家的买卖而制造的，一眼就能看出不是为国内消费而规划的。在欧洲出售的我国古代瓷器也有相同的特色，是为欧洲商场量身定制的共同规划和结构。

这些规划依据方针商场的喜爱阅历了严重的演化，并不顺便克扣、降服的意味。我国的丝绸和瓷器能够在罗马和希腊购买到，但不意味着我国需求操控罗马或希腊。相同，我国的茶叶在英国售卖，也不标明我国有必要操控英国才干促进买卖昌盛。

甘肃敦煌鸣沙驼铃迎客来， “一带一路”带火“丝路游”。

丝绸之路不触及我国对其他任何国家的军事或政治操控，也不植根于对劳动力和天然资源的殖民克扣，与英国东印度公司所代表的克扣型军事操控彻底不同。我国从未采纳过这样的战略，它既不是丝绸之路的精力，也不是其时“一带一路”主张的精力。

“一带一路”主张是曩昔十年来全球最重要的展开主张。它尊重不同国家的展开路途和意识形态，致力于促进以互利联络而不是以克扣联络为根底的增加，在相等、敞开和容纳的根底上共创昌盛，这是其独到之处，也是美欧支撑的各种协助项目永久无法比肩之处。

有必要指出的是，“一带一路”主张树立在四个重要支柱之上，别离是以港口、铁路为代表的硬件根底设施，以跨境买卖的规划和监管框架为代表的买卖根底设施，以数字经济推进下付出体系的改进和区块链技能对产品、服务认证的软件根底设施，以及本钱商场运作为代表的本钱根底设施。

这四大柱石构成了“一带一路”主张的精华，也使“一带一路”成为了全球买卖协作的未来地点。因而，越来越多的国家活跃参加其间。

知事：此前，澳大利亚维多利亚州决议同中方在“一带一路”框架下展开协作，可是2021年4月澳政府取消了维州政府同中方签署的“一带一路”协作协议。对此，澳大利亚懊悔吗，政界和商界是否有想要从头参加的声响？

戴若·顾比：我地点的州政府力主参加“一带一路”主张，但因为美国的对立，尽力并没有获得作用，澳大利亚在国家层面上独立拟定交际方针的才干正在后退。

现在，联邦层面和州政府的领导人之间在这一问题上存在不合。比方西澳大利亚州和维多利亚州的领导人现已认识到，澳大利亚的经济与我国有着内涵的联络，苛待咱们的我国客户没有含义。经过与我国在国家层面的共同尽力，咱们能够协作拟定买卖方针和应对办法。

惋惜的是，在“一带一路”主张提出之时，咱们的联邦政府现已遭到某些隐秘安全安排主张的严重影响，并坚定地向美国歪斜。尽管西澳大利亚州、维多利亚州和南澳大利亚州着重中澳联络的重要性以及澳大利亚参加“一带一路”主张的潜力，但短期内澳大利亚不太或许正式参加该主张。

尽管如此，我以为澳大利亚未来会瓜熟蒂落地参加到“一带一路”中。原因在于，澳大利亚在东盟区域的首要买卖同伴都已深度参加共建“一带一路”，它们现已承受了“一带一路”的协议、规范和流程。

以印度尼西亚雅万高铁的运营为例，它不只包含实体根底设施，还包含票务和铁路保护所需的软件。与此一起，新加坡最近完成了根据区块链的通关流程，清晰标明选用该体系将加快通关速度。

当地时刻10月17日，雅万高铁正式注册运营，一名乘务员在列车前。

至关重要的是，印尼和新加坡的体系都契兼并恪守“一带一路”协作协议。假如澳大利亚的方针是加强买卖，并寻求保持和改进商场准入，就有必要供认和承受“一带一路”共建国家选用的规范。

相同的准则也适用于澳大利亚对华出口。假如咱们选用“一带一路”的规范对接我国的跨境协议，对华出口的通关速度会更快、功率会更高。

关于澳大利亚企业来说，掌握这点至关重要，即使是那些与我国或“一带一路”没有直接联络的企业。因为面对新条件和新流程，企业天然需求时刻来习惯，政府也需求时刻来跟进。尽管澳大利亚在短期内仍不太或许正式参加“一带一路”主张，但澳大利亚企业现已在活跃承受和运用“一带一路”协议和程序。

知事：假如澳大利亚参加“一带一路”，会为澳大利亚企业带来哪些展开时机？

戴若·顾比：参加共建“一带一路”能够前进澳大利亚进入全球商场的功率，促进跨境买卖，简化买卖结算流程。以往，结算进程或许需求2到3周的时刻，还会让企业面对钱银动摇和买卖方针的不确定性。假如参加“一带一路”，经过根据区块链的结算体系，特别是使用数字公民币进行买卖结算，不只能够缩短结算周期，让买卖和结算一起进行，还明显下降了触及巨大金额的汇率危险。

现在，澳大利亚的经济昌盛依然首要依靠出口。因而，任何能拓宽进入全球商场的途径、前进流程功率、一起下降汇率危险的举动，都对澳大利亚有利。这是澳大利亚参加“一带一路”主张能获得的最要害的优势。

此外，我国现已走在部分先进技能的前沿，特别是在数字经济范畴，比澳大利亚和其他一些西方国家的展开抢先一代。为应对新冠疫情，西方经济体最近几年才开端加快选用数字买卖，而我国的数字技能早在疫情前就得到了高度展开。

为了前进竞争力和生产力，简化流程，澳大利亚有必要掌握和使用“一带一路”主张的四大支柱之一——数字渠道根底设施，这也为咱们更好地进入我国本钱商场供给了条件，呈现出无限的展开前景。

澳大利亚进入我国本钱商场有两方面的含义：首要，它供给了一条通往现在全球第二大债券商场的直接途径，让澳大利亚出资者能够参加前沿科技项目，并出资于我国的蓬勃展开；其次，它为买卖和出资供给了更广泛的或许性，增强了我国在澳大利亚的出资才干。

在澳中联络未堕入严重的一段时刻里，许多我国出资进入澳大利亚。但是，即便是在澳中协作的鼎盛时期，我国也只位列澳大利亚的第五大出资国，英国、法国、美国和新加坡等国家都在澳大利亚有更大的出资。这标明，我国对澳出资有很大的增加空间和扩张地步。

知事：在亚太经合安排成员中，只要美国、加拿大、澳大利亚3个国家既没有与我国签署共建“一带一路”协作协议或备忘录，也没有正式到会第三届“一带一路”国际协作高峰论坛，或许在“一带一路”框架下协作。您怎么看待这种现象？

戴若·顾比：这一决议反映了无知阻挠前进，霸权赶过协作，而协作正是亚太经合安排树立的初心地点。说起来有点挖苦，因为亚太经合安排开始是由澳大利亚提出的主张，奇怪的是，它其时遭到了美国的对立，美国底子不想参加其间。

西方国家对“一带一路”所持的观念，首要根据它们本身的前史体现。简略来说，便是西方关于我国的推测，大多来自于自己曾以那样的方法行事。

这种置疑源于对我国前史的无知。我国现已证明了它有才干在不诉诸军事钳制的状况下促进国际买卖和经济增加。唐宋时期，在没有军事操控的状况下，中外互惠互利的买卖联络蓬勃展开，这段前史决议了我国对全球买卖的前史情绪，并继续影响着我国对全球商场的参加。

亚太经合安排在促进亚太区域协作和经济增加方面发挥了要害作用，相关国家抛弃签署共建“一带一路”协作文件的决议，不只要悖于协作共赢的精力，也损害了对亚太经合安排的支撑。

各国媒体重视亚太经合安排第三十次领导人非正式会议。

最想对澳大利亚说两个字

知事：您此前谈到了了解实在我国的重要性，您应该到过我国很屡次，前次是什么时分？

戴若·顾比：我前次拜访我国是在2019年的12月，就在新冠疫情爆发之前。从那以后，我一向没有时机再来，所以我不太了解我国的最新状况。但是，我从与搭档和消息人士的评论中了解到，这几年我国在许多方面都有严重展开，特别是数字经济范畴。

这些改动十分令人兴奋，并对“一带一路”主张产生了活跃影响。在咱们庆祝“一带一路”十周年之际，有必要指出，尽管“一带一路”主张在侧重点和使用方面有所改动，但其间心方针一直如一：前进买卖功率，促进协作。

我国在这方面现已获得了实质性开展。在曩昔的三四年里，数字经济的前进推进了我国的展开，使其成为一个更具生产力的经济体。这些前进也影响着“一带一路”，惠及一切共建国家。

知事：您来过我国很屡次，但大多数西方人或许从来没有亲身来过我国，只能经过媒体来了解我国，从而树立对我国的一些刻板形象。在您到访我国时，有哪些令人形象深入的工作？实在的我国和澳大利亚等西方媒体眼中的我国，有何不同？

戴若·顾比：这个问题的答案有两个方面。首要值得注意的是，自1840年鸦片战役以来，西方对我国的了解并没有获得明显的前进。

尽管我在新加坡和华人搭档一起工作了许多年，但当我真实来到我国的时分，发现我的许多先入为主的观念，我的许多主意、许多假定都是十分过错的。

总的来说，西方对我国的了解往往是树立在我国南方区域的文明背景上。假如你调查一下曩昔几个世纪以来华人社区在全球的散布状况，就会发现，当地中餐馆的运营人员大多来自客家人，比方说福建人。

再举个比如，咱们以为大米是全我国的主食，却没有意识到，在我国北方，人们的主食是以小麦而不是大米为根底的。咱们乃至不了解米饭在一顿饭中扮演的人物，在包含香港和广州在内的我国南方区域，米饭是每顿饭的根本组成部分，贯穿用餐体会的一直。但是在北京，米饭一般会在用餐完毕时上场，作为收尾。

这仅仅一个简略的简单产生误解的比如，但也突出了从头认识我国的必要性。咱们在生长的进程中经过教育和文明触摸吸收的常识，都受限于中西方了解方法上的巨大距离。这儿说的不是专门研究我国的学者，而是普通人，他们对我国的风俗和文明的了解在很大程度上是由当地的中餐馆刻画的，这些场所典型地反映了我国南方（首要是沿海区域）的传统，乃至是有必定前史的传统。

所以，当人们第一次踏上我国之旅时，或许会感到适当震动。因为他们遇到的是一个现代的、充满活力的、先进的、杂乱的经济体。

其次，咱们还看到叫嚣“对华战役”的宣扬运动日益高涨，特别是由美国人和某些西方媒体带头，其间一些受鲁珀特·默多克的影响。这种宣扬运动简直将我国产生的任何工作都打上负面标签。例如，当石油价格上涨时，第一天它被归因于“我国经济的阑珊”；第二天，它被归因于“我国经济的扩张”。

因为我国幅员辽阔，许多人无法了解我国很多的少数民族、多样的文明和各式各样的日子方法。人们一般以为每个我国人都以相同的方法考虑和举动，没有任何不同的观念。西方社会中遍及存在着对我国的误解，其程度之深，很难一言以蔽之。

咱们需求长时刻的文明沟通、学术沟通、人员沟通和游览沟通，才干弥合这种对华了解上的差错。长时刻来看，沟通沟通堆集下的阅历，能够经过时刻渐渐进入到政治阶级，进入咱们的官员和领导人的脑海中，协助他们更好地了解我国正在产生的工作。

就我个人而言，我以为自己很走运，曾屡次前往我国，探究了从北京到新疆，从广州到大连的各个地方。例如，西安与北京有很大的不同，就像北京与上海、广州和香港的不同相同。要真实与我国打交道，咱们有必要既考虑到我国的整体性，又认识到它的多样性，并学习怎么与这个巨大而多元的社会有用互动。

知事：假如您能对澳大利亚公民说一句话来协助他们了解真实的我国，您会对他们说什么？

戴若·顾比：谦逊。重要的是认识到每种文明都供给了名贵的阅历。假如你不愿意学习，再多的教育也不能阻挠无知无限期地继续下去。

知事：咱们常说，两国公民的友谊是两国联络的根底。阅历疫情之后，好像中澳两国公民之间的沟通变少了。为了促进两国民众的沟通，两国政府应该怎么做？

戴若·顾比：我以为，两国能够做的最重要的工作是简化签证请求程序。假如人们能够方便地在两国之间游览——从澳大利亚到我国，从我国到澳大利亚，这将有利于游览业，有利于澳大利亚和我国的经济复苏。

更重要的是，这也为人们探究和触摸互相的文明供给了时机。尽管高层次的智力和教育沟通很重要，但人们在日常日子中树立联络，并承受其他国家供给的多样化体会相同至关重要。

澳大利亚政府重启ADS游览签证：欢迎我国游览团赴澳。

我不奢求两国能够免签证游览，但简化签证请求程序对互相都有很大优点。或许能够考虑，树立一种类似于印尼落地签或新加坡无妨碍入境的准则。现在，我国和澳大利亚的签证程序都很杂乱，这关于人员的自在活动和友谊的培育构成了必定妨碍。

图源：视觉我国

以下为本次专访的英文原文：

The Daryl Guppy Interview: "Two Years Later: Does Australia Regret Its Past Decision?"

Australian Prime Minister Albanese’s visit to China ended on the evening of November 7, with its Foreign Minister Hon Penny Wong also heading to Tokyo from Beijing. The visit is notably Albanese’s first visit to China as Prime Minister and marks the first trip by an Australian prime minister to the country since 2016.

On Nov. 5, Albanese attended the 6th China International Import Expo opening session and other events in Shanghai. He highlighted Australia will continue to strengthen communication and dialogue with China and promote practical cooperation in tourism, trade and other fields.

He said, “traveling is one of the best ways for people of our two countries to have dialogues and exchanges so that we can learn about each other’s culture and customs in each other’s lands. Tourism is an important bilateral industry chain.”

What results does Albanese hope to achieve in his visit to China? What will it do to improve China-Australia relations? Does it mean a change in the direction of Australia’s policy toward China? Previously, the state of Victoria decided to cooperate with China under the BRI framework, but in April 2021, the Australian Government canceled the cooperation agreement. Does Australia regret this, and are there voices in politics and business that want to rejoin?

In collaboration with RDCY, Capital News has launched the “Global Governance Forum” section. Daryl Guppy, a former national board member of the Australia China Business Council and Australian representative of the Silk Road International Chamber of Commerce (SRICC), shared his views on the Belt and Road Initiative, China-Australia ties and other issues with us.

Guppy emphasizes that Albanese’s visit offers a chance for him to interact with the people in China to see what China is really like as distinct from what he believes in his life, or what he is told it is like. And his objective will be to smooth the trade relationship and also address the recent problems that have blighted the Australian China relationship. But to do this will also require Australia to remove a number of discriminatory trade barriers, both formal and informal, that have been implemented against Chinese products and services over the last 5 or 10 years. Certainly, businesses are hopeful that the visit will lead to an improved understanding of China, and make it possible to have more informed discussions.

He notes while the visit may appear to signal a shift in policy, in reality, this is not a substantive change in policy direction. In many respects, it’s a hardening of policy, because Australia is drawing ever closer and deeper into the policy approach favored by the United States. At the meeting between Albanese and President Biden in Washington very recently, their discussion shows no divergence between the Australian approach to China and that of American. The noteworthy alteration lies in the tone of engagement with China. People are no longer shouting, gone are the days of confrontational rhetoric. Foreign minister Penny Wong is a skilled diplomat. She understands that diplomacy, that quiet diplomacy can achieve a great deal more than megaphone, shouting, and scolding.

More and More Countries Gravitate to BRI with Its Four Pillars

Capital News: What is your overall impression of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI)?

Daryl Guppy：The Belt and Road Initiative is the most important global initiative has been launched in the last decade. Its importance is underscored by its positive impact on the Global South in terms of fostering growth and global prosperity, based on mutually beneficial relationships rather than exploitative ones. This sets it apart from other programs and trade agreements implemented elsewhere in the world. Perhaps one of the most important aspects about Belt and Road Initiative is its recognition of different development paths. It says quite clearly that there is no single preferred development path that is suitable for every country, particularly in the diverse environments of the Global South. Then the single solution often proposed by the west is not appropriate. This contrasts sharply with the Western tendency to advocate for a single, often imposed solution.

A key distinction lies in the fact that the Belt and Road Initiative lacks an ideological agenda. It doesn’t require participants to sign up to a social agenda, political agenda, or an idea of supporting particular social approaches or technical approaches. It remains open and inclusive in that regard.

However, it's essential to note that the Belt and Road Initiative is founded on four significant pillars. Now, most people just focus on the physical and tangible aspects, hard infrastructure, so they talk about building ports, developing high-speed rail, and these types of things. it's important to emphasize that this is just the starting point. This report shows there’s a great need. The infrastructure deficit in the pacific region, in the Asian region is substantial, and is going to take more than the existing funding organizations to be able to bridge that physical infrastructure deficit. However, Belt and Road Initiative is far more than that. It encompasses a broader scope that goes beyond physical infrastructure development.

The second crucial factor is trade infrastructure. This encompasses the planning and regulatory framework that underpins cross-border trade. It encompasses the regulatory environment, transaction processes, the structure of trade agreements, and the functioning of cross-border and multinational organizations, including entities like ASEAN and RCEP. All of these trade agreements fall under the umbrella of trade infrastructure. Therefore, coordinating and harmonizing this trade infrastructure, especially in a multilateral context, becomes paramount. It constitutes one of the four pillars of the Belt and Road Initiative.

The third pillar, often overlooked but equally significant, involves what we might refer to as 'soft' and digital infrastructure. A profound transformation is underway in China and elsewhere, driven by the development of the digital economy. What’s the digital economy rests on? The foundation of the digital economy rests on improvements in payment systems and the utilization of blockchain technology for certifying goods and services.

This ensures that when you make a purchase, you can be confident that it hasn't been replaced with an inferior product, and you can track its progress through the logistics chain. It provides certainty regarding the quality of the services and products being delivered. Moreover, with blockchain, the introduction of China's digital currency, the electronic yuan, revolutionizes payment systems. It grants access to banking-like structures for those who previously lacked such access. This means you no longer need to stash cash under your bed; you can effectively operate as if you have a real bank account.

This development brings about two significant outcomes. First of all, it directly combats corruption. No longer are individuals compelled to handle anonymous banknotes, mitigating the petty levels of corruption that often plague impoverished areas. Blockchain and digital banking systems overcome this challenge. More importantly, it allows small business to develop the capital needed for expansion. Banking stands as one of the most significant changes that lift people out of poverty and move them towards the middle class—a feat China has already achieved with remarkable success in its poverty alleviation efforts.

The subsequent phase involves transitioning from poverty to what China’s President Xi Jinping refers to as 'common prosperity.' Blockchain technology and the digital economy represent a central pillar of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). This third pillar encompasses 'soft' digital infrastructure. The fourth pillar of the BRI centers on capital infrastructure, which has far-reaching effects on equity markets, capital allocation, and the ability to attract foreign investment into Chinese and associated markets, thereby establishing the necessary regulatory framework.

That mean that capital can move freely across borders, leading to more efficient cross-border trade settlements and properly functioning bond markets. These four cornerstones constitute the essence of the Belt and Road Initiative. As I said, physical, hard infrastructure that’s what most people focus on. It’s important, but it’s not the most important. Trade infrastructure is the linchpin that enables prosperity to permeate.

When coupled with the development of soft digital infrastructure, including payment systems based on blockchain, and integrated with elements of capital infrastructure, this forms the true essence and value of the Belt and Road Initiative. This distinct combination sets it apart from its predecessors.

Capital News: As of June this year, China has signed over 200 cooperation agreements on jointly building the BRI with 152 countries and 32 international organizations. Why are more and more countries and regions getting on board with the BRI?

Daryl Guppy：More and more countries are getting on board with Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) because this is where the future of global trade cooperation is found. There are two contrasting paradigms in understanding international trade. The prevalent model we are accustomed to is rooted in hegemony, characterized by an exploitative colonial-style relationship. And this is the history of western trade. It’s about the exploitation of goods and the exploitation of people for the benefit of few. This is what underpinned imperial expansion. This is what underpin the colonization of India, the colonization of much of southeast Asia, the attempts of colonization of China. It was about the exploitation of the people and of the resources.

In stark contrast, Chinese trade, historically speaking, embraces the concept of mutual prosperity. The ancient Silk Road, upon which the BRI draws inspiration, was founded on the exchange of goods and services. For example, Chinese silk could be purchased in the Roman and Greek empires, yet this didn't entail Chinese dominance. Similarly, the availability of Chinese tea in England didn't necessitate Chinese control over England for trade to flourish. There was no exploitative relationship that existed. Chinese trade history underscores the mutual prosperity that trade can engender. The modern incarnation of this philosophy is reflected in the Belt and Road Initiative.

This approach to trade also fosters peaceful relations between countries. Moreover, the BRI, as previously noted, lacks an ideological agenda, distinguishing it from Western development programs. Countries have the choice to access funding from various sources, and some funds, particularly those from the United States, may come with a set of social objectives that may or may not align with the recipient country's needs. For instance, during President Trump's tenure, the U.S. declined to support programs related to birth control or contraception.

These are crucial issues in a wide range of developing countries. However, aid programs often faced challenges, not necessarily due to their inability to achieve their objectives, but because they didn't align with the United States' social and ideological agenda, prompting a discontinuation of that type of assistance. This stands out as a key distinction and is a significant departure from the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Firstly, the BRI does not operate on the basis of exploitation of its participants. Secondly, it does not carry an ideological or social agenda that imposes change on recipient countries.

While there is a shared desire to enhance the social environment, there is a difference between pursuing such change through cooperation and making it a condition for cooperation. This is a fundamental reason why an increasing number of countries and regions are embracing the Belt and Road Initiative.

Has Australia Ever Regretted Not Joining BRI?

Capital News: During an interview with the South China Morning Post, you mentioned that the Silk Road was one of the earliest forms of globalization, bringing silk and tea to Europe. You believe that China was the first major economy to recognize the emergence of a new type of globalization, where the core of the global economy is shifting, and you have faith that China will drive this new iteration of globalization. In that context, what significance does the Belt and Road Initiative have for this new form of globalization?

Daryl Guppy: I think what’s important about the new form of globalization is not its entirely novel nature, but rather, a rediscovery of the style of globalization that once characterized the original Silk Road.

While there are differences, such as advancements in technology, shifts in trade relationships, and changes in the structure of nation-states, what remains unchanged is the distinction between trade as a function of conquest and exploitation, versus trade as a collaborative venture resulting in mutual benefit. It's worth reflecting on this point. From a Western perspective, trade often involved notions of conquest and exploitation. It wasn't merely a straightforward exchange of goods; there was a prevailing belief that one needed to assert control over resources and populations before trade could occur. This pattern was evident across a broad spectrum of trade relationships, particularly between Europe and the rest of the world.

In contrast, when examining China's historical trade along the Silk Road, prior to what Europeans refer to as the 'Age of Exploration,' trade was characterized by cooperation and mutual benefit. Goods, including ceramics, flowed from China to various parts of the world. This was a remarkably sophisticated trade environment. If we examine shipwrecks in the South China Sea near Indonesia, the porcelain found within them was specifically crafted for trade with Asia and is instantly recognizable as not intended for domestic consumption.

When examining Chinese porcelain available in Europe, one can discern distinct designs and structures tailored specifically for the European market, challenging the broad notion that all Chinese ceramics are uniform. In reality, these designs underwent significant evolution depending on the target market they were meant to serve. There was no element of exploitation involved; it wasn't about imposing a particular cultural or social model on the recipient. Instead, it was a collaborative endeavor for mutual benefit. The goods that were produced by China were designed specifically for different market environments. What is the situation today in the western environment? China crafted goods with particular markets in mind, a far cry from the contemporary Western approach where products like chocolate remain standardized across the globe, whether bought in Beijing, New York, London, or Mumbai.

The modern form of globalization often entails the imposition of a uniform product on a global scale. In contrast, if you go back to the Silk Road, the Silk Road did not involve this type of domination. The Silk Road operated on principles of cooperation and mutual benefit, where trade flowed in both directions. The Silk Road did not involve China’s military or civil dominance of any other country, nor was it rooted in the colonial exploitation of people and natural resources. The Silk Road approach did not include the type of military or social control exemplified by entities like the British East India Company, which imposed regulations and governance structures on India to facilitate exploitation of both its people and resources. China never did that. China never pursued such a strategy; it was not part of the Silk Road ethos, nor is it a component of the current Belt and Road Initiative.

Of course, within individual countries, there may have been instances of exploitation among local populations—unfortunately, this is a recurring reality. There were individuals who were exploited in the production of natural resources traded along the Silk Road. However, the Silk Road itself, and China's engagement with it, did not entail the form of colonial exploitation seen on a state base. The Belt and Road Initiative builds upon this type of globalization, drawing from an approach founded on mutual cooperation and shared benefits. It recognizes that global prosperity brings benefits to all of the users, in stark contrast to the exploitative colonial model that benefits only a select few countries and a small elite within each country.

I believe this is the fundamental distinction between what we might term 'ancient globalization' and the new form of globalization that underlies the Belt and Road Initiative. The objective is to create a common prosperity through trade that is founded on equal and respectful terms, rather than being driven by exploitation. This represents the pivotal difference. It's what sets the Belt and Road Initiative apart, especially when compared to initiatives like the Blue Dot (BDN, BlueDotNetwork) initiative from the United States, as well as various other aid programs typically spearheaded by the U.S. and often backed by Europe. They are a charity, to some extent. They are not working to increase prosperity in an economic sense between those involved in that trade relationship.

Capital News: Previously, the Australian state of Victoria decided to engage in cooperation with China under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative. However, the Australian government vetoed the Belt and Road cooperation agreement signed between the Victoria state government and China. Is Australia regretful about this decision, and are there voices from both the political and business sectors expressing a desire to rejoin?

Daryl Guppy:On a personal level, I actively advocated for the benefits of engaging with the Belt and Road Initiative, both within my state government and on a national scale.

Unfortunately, our efforts to persuade the national government to participate in the Belt and Road Initiative were unsuccessful, largely due to opposition from the United States. This led to a retreat from independent foreign policy development at the national level.

As we've observed, even recent actions by the Prime Minister of Australia demonstrate a growing alignment with U.S. foreign policy. This creates a divide between the policy stance at the national level and the perspectives of some state leaders, such as those in Western Australia and Victoria. These leaders recognize the potential harm to our trade relationships and understand that Australia's prosperity is intrinsically linked to China's economic development. It simply doesn't make any sense to abuse our customer or not to align with their pursuits. By jointly working with China at a national level, we can cooperatively develop policies and responses.

Unfortunately, at the time when the Belt and Road Initiative cooperation offer was extended, our national government was already heavily influenced by advice from certain secretive security services, and was firmly oriented towards the United States. While states like Western Australia, Victoria, and South Australia continue to recognize the significance of the China-Australia relationship and Australia's potential participation in the Belt and Road Initiative, it appears unlikely that Australia will formally join the initiative. However, circumstances may compel Australia to become involved in the Belt and Road Initiative in the future.

The rationale behind this lies in the fact that Australia's primary trading partners in the ASEAN region are deeply involved in the Belt and Road Initiative. These nations have already embraced Belt and Road protocols, standards, and processes. Consider, for example, the operation of a high-speed train in Indonesia. It encompasses not only the physical infrastructure, but also ticketing and the software required for railway maintenance, including points, trains, and carriages. Similarly, when a high-speed train runs from Yunnan to Kuala Lumpur and onward to Singapore, it involves more than just the tangible infrastructure.

We're already witnessing Indonesia implementing what they term a 'National Single Window' entry process for imports into the country. Meanwhile, Singapore has recently finalized a blockchain-based customs clearance process, making it clear that adoption of this system will expedite customs clearances. What's crucial here is that both the Indonesian and Singaporean systems align with and adhere to BRI software protocols. If Australia aims to bolster its trade, and if it seeks to sustain and improve market access, it is inevitable that we must recognize and embrace the standards being employed in Belt and Road Initiative countries.

The same principle applies to Australian exports to China. When we employ BRI protocols, tap into Chinese cross-border protocols, and utilize Chinese blockchain systems and standards, our exports to China will go through the clearance process more swiftly. Conversely, if we fail to acknowledge and adopt these conditions, our exports may face delays, with businesses relegated to the back of the line. Progress may not be as swift.

It's crucial for businesses to grasp this concept, even those not directly involved with China and the BRI. Because by facing with a new set of conditions and new set of processes, adjustment to a new set of conditions and processes will naturally require time for businesses to adapt and for government to follow suit. While formal engagement with the Belt and Road Initiative by Australia may remain a low probability in the immediate future, businesses are already proactively embracing and utilizing Belt and Road protocols and procedures.

Capital News: If Australia were to join the Belt and Road Initiative, what development opportunities could it potentially offer to Australian businesses?

Daryl Guppy: Engaging with the Belt and Road Initiative provides more efficient access to global markets, facilitates cross-border transactions, and streamlines trade settlements. By employing blockchain for trade settlement, we significantly reduce counterparty risk and the cycle time for settlements. Traditionally, this process could take 2 to 3 weeks, leaving us exposed to currency fluctuations and counterparty uncertainties on both sides of the transaction.

However, with blockchain-based settlement systems, particularly in the context of recognizing and utilizing the digital Yuan for trade and settlements, we can nearly eliminate counterparty risk. Transactions occur simultaneously, eradicating the foreign currency risk that could represent significant sums in major trade settlements. This is a significant advantage for Australia, which heavily relies on exports.

Critics have previously argued that China's economy is overly reliant on exports. President Xi Jinping's emphasis on a 'circular economy' is aimed at shifting China away from this dependence, focusing on bolstering domestic circulation. In contrast, Australia has yet to make this shift and remains heavily reliant on exports for prosperity. Anything that enhances our access to global markets and makes the process more efficient, while reducing currency risk, is a positive development. This stands as a key advantage for Australia in its engagement with the Belt and Road Initiative.

Moreover, China is already at the forefront of advanced technology, boasting a generation-ahead of Australian and Western development, particularly in the realm of the digital economy. While Western economies only recently accelerated their adoption of digital transactions in response to COVID, the level of digital sophistication implemented in China pre-dated the pandemic by a significant margin.

In order to compete and enhance our processes and productivity, it's imperative that we grasp and tap into the digital platforms and structures that form the backbone of the Belt and Road Initiative. This also grants us improved entry into China's capital markets, presenting a myriad of development prospects. Access to China's capital markets functions on two fronts. Firstly, it offers a direct pathway to what is currently the world's second-largest bond market. This enables Australian investors to participate in technologically advanced projects and invest in China's burgeoning initiatives. It unveils a broad spectrum of trading and investment possibilities while also bolstering China's capacity to invest in Australia.

In the period preceding the strain in Australian-China relations, there was a notable influx of Chinese investment into Australia. Yet, even at its zenith, China ranked as the fifth-largest investor in Australia. Countries like England, France, the United States, and Singapore all held larger investments in Australia. This signifies that there is substantial room for growth and expansion in terms of Chinese investment in Australia. Moreover, Australia's access to China's capital markets positions us for genuine global diversification and a reduction of investment risk. They are the key benefit; BRI is where the future of global trade lies in multilateral agreements.

Capital News: Among the member countries of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC), only the United States, Canada, and Australia have neither signed a Belt and Road Initiative agreement or memorandum with China, nor participated in the third Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation, nor engaged in cooperation under the Belt and Road framework. How do you view this phenomenon?

Daryl Guppy: This decision reflects a triumph of ignorance over progress, prioritizing hegemony over cooperation, which was the very essence of APEC's foundation. It is somewhat ironic, because APEC was initially proposed and constructed by Australia — It was an Australian initiative. Strangely enough, it faced opposition from the United States, they didn’t want to try to be involved at all. Additionally, this stance reveals a certain bias towards innovation, favoring Western contributions while downplaying the value of innovation from other sources.

This perspective seems to project assumptions about China's behavior based on how powerful Western nations have historically acted once they've reached a certain level of influence and size. And the assumption is that China will behave in the same way. And this is just ignorance, because I know the history of China. China has demonstrated its ability to foster international trade and economic growth without resorting to military coercion. A prime example lies in the trade developments during the Tang and Song dynasties, where mutually beneficial trade relationships thrived without the need for military dominance. This history defines China's historical approach to global trade, and it continues to shape its present engagement.

The decision to abstain from signing onto the Belt and Road Initiative, in many ways, undermines the spirit of cooperative ventures and the support for APEC that has been pivotal in fostering collaboration and economic growth in the Asia-Pacific region.

Australia’s China Policy Has No Substantial Change at All

Capital News: Since 2023, Australian Prime Minister Albanese has expressed interest in visiting China on multiple occasions. On October 22nd, Albanese announced that he will be visiting China from November 4th to 7th. What outcomes do you think Prime Minister Albanese hopes to achieve from his visit to China? What role might this play in improving Sino-Australian relations?

Daryl Guppy:The visit holds crucial significance in the effort to enhance Sino-Australian relations. Equally important is its potential to provide a more accurate understanding of the actual situation in China. As far as I can understand, the Prime Minister has not had the opportunity to travel to China since he took office, which means his perception of the country is largely shaped by potentially misleading reports from the Australian media and possibly alarmist briefings from security services, whose advice may be colored by their own interests.

This visit offers a chance for him to interact with the people in China to see what China is really like as distinct from what he believes it is like, or what he is told it is like. Without experiencing places like Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, or Wuhan, one's understanding of China can be quite limited. And his objective will be to smooth the trade relationship and also address the recent problems that have blighted the Australian China relationship.

But to do this will also require Australia to remove a number of discriminatory trade barriers, both formal and informal, that have been implemented against Chinese products and services over the last 5 or 10 years. Certainly, businesses are hopeful that the visit will lead to an improved understanding of China, and make it possible to have more informed discussions.

The important feature is that, first of all, this approach represents a departure from the previous tone of the Australia-China relationship. It avoids using a metaphorical megaphone and refrains from scolding China. Instead, there appears to be a genuine desire to listen, understand, and resolve issues in a civilized fashion. That’s certainly what the business community hopes will be the outcome of this particular visit.

Capital News: Since 2017, both the Turnbull and Morrison governments of Australia blindly followed the United States in hyping up the "China threat" narrative, using so-called "national security" reasons to hinder normal economic and trade activities between the two countries. This led to a downturn in Sino-Australian relations and economic exchanges. Now, it appears that the Albanese government may be inclined to mend relations with China. Does this imply a change in Australia's policy towards China?

Daryl Guppy: While it may appear to signal a shift in policy, in reality, this is not a substantive change in policy direction. In many respects, it’s a hardening of policy, because Australia is drawing ever closer and deeper into the policy approach favored by the United States. We look at the meeting between Albanese and President Biden in Washington very recently. And the discussion there shows no divergence between the Australian approach to China and the American approach to China. The noteworthy alteration lies in the tone of engagement with China. People are no longer shouting, gone are the days of confrontational rhetoric. Foreign minister Penny Wong is a skilled diplomat. She understands that diplomacy, that quiet diplomacy can achieve a great deal more than megaphone, shouting, and scolding.

So, it’s a polite and civilized tone in terms of what’s happening, but it’s not really a massive change within the policy structure. We see that with the increases that are taking in the defense field with the development of AUKUS, there is no moving away from those commitments, but there is a smooth and polite tone, and smooth way for cooperation, better cooperation across a wide range of issues. This is undoubtedly a positive development. However, it would be a misconception to interpret this as a wholesale departure from the tendency to closely align with the United States and their narrative of a China threat. Hopefully, as more travel and exchanges take place that will take place in a less belligerent atmosphere, there is hope for a deeper understanding of the respective needs, requirements, and aspirations of both China and Australia. This can only serve the interests of both nations.

People-to-people Exchanges Heal the Understanding Gap

Capital News: Have you had the opportunity to visit China multiple times? When was your most recent visit?

Daryl Guppy:My last visit was in December, just before the onset of the COVID pandemic. Since then, I haven't had the opportunity to return, so I'm not as up-to-date with the current situation in China. However, I'm aware from discussions with colleagues and sources that there were significant developments, particularly in the digital economy, that occurred in China during that time.

The changes are quite exciting and are having an impact on the Belt and Road Initiative. As we mark its 10th anniversary, it's important to note that while the initiative has evolved in emphasis and application, its core objectives remain consistent: to enhance trade efficiency and foster cooperation. China has made substantial progress in this regard.

China is already well down that path. The recent advancements in the digital economy over the past 3 or 4 years have propelled China's development, making it a more productive economy. These advancements are also influencing the Belt and Road engagement, benefiting all participating countries along the route.

Capital News: You've been to China many times, but for most Westerners, they might have never been to China in person. They can only learn about China through the media, which might lead to some stereotypes. Based on your experiences visiting China, what are some of the most memorable things you've encountered? How does the real China differ from the portrayal of China in Western media like Australia?

Daryl Guppy: There are two parts of the answers of that. The first part, it's worth noting that the Western understanding of China hasn't significantly progressed since the Opium War in 1840. So even though I worked for many years in Singapore and I worked with Chinese colleagues, when I actually went to China, I found that many of my preconceptions, many of my ideas, many of my assumptions were quite wrong.

So as a generalization, the Western experience with China tends to be primarily in the context of southern China. If you consider the global diaspora of Chinese communities over the past centuries, it's highly likely that your local Chinese restaurant, for instance, draws its roots from the Hakka people and those from Fujian province. So, our experiences tend to be centered around southern China. For instance, we may assume that rice is a dietary staple for all of China, without realizing that in northern China, the economy is based on wheat, not rice. We don’t understand the role that the rice plays in a meal. I mean this is just a simple example of misunderstanding.

In regions like southern China, including Hong Kong and Guangzhou, rice is considered a fundamental component of every meal, viewed as initiating and completing the dining experience. However, in Beijing, rice typically makes its appearance towards the end of the meal, providing a closing note. This underscores the need for a significant relearning process, as much of what we absorbed during our formative years, be it through education or cultural exposure, was unfortunately marred by substantial gaps in understanding.

When it comes to everyday people, not scholars or individuals who have specifically studied China, their understanding of Chinese customs and culture is often shaped to a large extent by their experiences at local Chinese restaurants. These establishments typically reflect the traditions of southern China. So, it can be quite a shock for people when they first set foot in China. What they encounter is a modern, dynamic, advanced, and sophisticated society and economy. That's the first thing.

Adding to that, we have seen a recent surge in the 'war on China' campaign, particularly spearheaded by Americans and certain elements of the Western media, some of which are influenced by Rupert Murdoch. This campaign tends to cast a negative light on virtually anything happening in China. For example, when the price of oil falls one day it's attributed to China's economic decline, and the next day, when the oil price rises, it's attributed to China's expanding economy. It seems that no matter what occurs, there is often a negative narrative attached to events in China.

Due to its immense size, which is beyond what many can comprehend, people fail to grasp the multitude of minority groups, the diverse array of cultures, and the various approaches within China. There's often an assumption that China is a monolithic entity, where everyone thinks and acts the same way, without any diversity of opinion. It is difficult to describe the depth of misunderstanding that prevails in the western environment.

The process of bridging this gap in understanding requires cultural exchanges, student exchanges, travel, and tourism. It takes time for these experiences to trickle up into the political class, our officials, and our leaders, so they can gain a better understanding of what is happening. It’s a long-term process. Personally, I consider myself fortunate to have traveled to China on numerous occasions, exploring various parts from Beijing to Xinjiang, and from Guangzhou to Dalian. Xi'an, for instance, differs significantly from Beijing, just as Beijing differs from Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong. To truly engage with China, we must take into account its entirety, recognizing its diversity, and learn how to effectively interact with this vast and multifaceted society.

Capital News: You just mentioned how it's crucial to move from misconceptions to a genuine understanding. If you could say one thing to the people of Australia to help them understand the real China, what would you tell them?

Daryl Guppy: Humility. It's important to recognize that every culture offers valuable lessons. If you're not open to learning, no amount of education can prevent ignorance from persisting indefinitely.

Capital News: We often say that the friendship between the people of two countries forms the foundation of their relationship. It seems that after the pandemic, there has been a decrease in exchanges between the Chinese and Australian people. What should the governments of both countries do to promote interactions between their citizens?

Daryl Guppy: I think the most important thing that both countries can do is to simplify the visa application process. If people can travel easily between the two countries, Australia to China, China to Australia, which will benefits tourism. It’s good for the Australian economy, and is good for the Chinese economy, but more importantly, it also opens up opportunities for people to explore and engage with each other's cultures. While intellectual and educational exchanges at higher levels are important, it's equally vital to connect with everyday people and embrace the diverse experiences each country offers.

Personally, I see substantial benefits for both nations in simplifying the application process. Perhaps a system akin to Indonesia's visa on arrival or Singapore's hassle-free entry could be considered. The current complexity of visa procedures, both in China and Australia, stands as a significant barrier to the free flow of information and the cultivation of friendships.

告发/反应